WOW, Ellisville location is closing also. Oh well. So much for Tax Increment Financing deals helping businesses. WHOOPS, I see more closings are listed in the above article

Actually PHIIIIL, this is just another example of the City of Ellisville and its resident's not being able to see the forest through the trees. Shoe Carnival is next once the new location open's down the road in Ballwin. The city needs to find retailers to drive traffic not the chase them away. I wonder how residents will feel when revenues start impacting things such as the the fireworks show, the pool, etc. Boone's Crossing was built on TIF, think they are struggling to keep retailers? Actually no, so much so competing outlet center's are opening to be a part of the opportunity. Is TIF fair? Do we like it? Isn't the more important question what can it mean big picture to the prosperity of your city?

"Boone's Crossing was built on TIF, think they are struggling to keep retailers?"

I think they're struggling to find residents. You're comparing apples to oranges. That is a purely commercial area. You want to turn Ellisville into Boone's Crossing? I wouldn't want to live in a strip mall, or in the shadow of a big box store.

As for canceling the yearly fireworks? I'm OK with that. There should be a larger discussion about how the community wants to handle these potential shortfalls and what it means to build business. Budget reductions for niceties like the annual fireworks display may need to be eliminited.

As for seeing the forest for the trees... you can say goodbye to the trees and the forest when they get paved over for a Walmart.

Once again our boy Mayor Paul strikes again with his anti business attitude. He in his short tenure now has driven Best Buy, Nissan, Medicine & More, Chevys, Long John Silver out of Ellisville with Mercedes and Shoe Carnival soon to follow. His retail scorched earth policy is working perfectly. Soon under his highness Ellisville will become the West County equivalent of East St. Louis. You can kiss your Ellisville police forece, trash pickup, snow removal services goodbye under Paul.
Seig Heil.

MIke K reinforcing the bigger message here! @Caffeinated, the trees? No, say goodbye to an empty car lot and a run down apartment complex. Want to throw out Boone's Crossing fair enough. What's your dismissal for Manchester Highlands then? Plenty of residential. Oh yeah, and your Best Buy. Let me ask you one last question. Do you think Ballwin and really Ellisville resident drive to Target and/or Walmart for their home goods? Kmart you say? How long you think Sears/Kmart has left? Then what?

Caff, (speaking candidly) I fully agree with you on TIFs. What irks me the most is when officials of municipalities say "I dont like TIFs, they hurt the region, but everyone else is doing it so that makes it ok." Great job, you plugged an ugly corner of your town for ten years until the property starts aging again or Walmart/another moves or closes. No significant chahge in population over last 20 years in the region so why the boom in retail space? It doesnt add up. In Speaking with key players at companies like PACE, Duke, Simon, and development companies alike has not alleviated any of my trepidations either. Pssst... they all agree with my stance and it is only a matter of time when the bubble bursts. Right now it is a money grab because the day of inappropriate use of TIF tools are coming to an end. All TIFs do is raise the cost of Commercial RE property. Essentially, we are paying to keep commercial property prices ridiculously inflated in our region. In turn we are giving property tax abatements on these properties to keep the assessed land value frozen in the hope of more sales tax. Who is responsible when the coffers (Fire, Schools, the blind, Metra,etc) have budget shortfalls? Have you noticed how many bond measures have hit the ballot in the last 10 years. A TIF is 23 years by default… 1989 property tax rates are not covering 2012 costs.

Also, with all of that cleared paved over commercial space available, I don't have a problem with the zoning board turning those large tracts back into residential plots/neighborhoods that could be filled with wage-earning homeowners (with children) that pay taxes and buy stuff. Little mike k might even be interested in moving back to Ellisville if someone built a gated community with a guard shack to keep the "riff-raff" out, or even just to be closer to his beloved Walmart so he doesn't get as tired pushing his walker to buy new tennis balls for the legs.

I can't tell if little mike actually believes the mis-information he spews or if he does it in an effort at mis-direction.

He's either deluded or an amateur.

Either way, little mike doesn't understand that too many of us know the truth about what is going on.

What is going on in Ellisville is that it is a dying town led by a rank amateur Mayor who has no clue how to attract business. It is really a shame we couldn't elect a Mayor the caliber of Ballwin, Wildwood or Chesterfield. How many more years will the residents of Ellisville be satisfied driving by the abandoned dealerships of Clarkson/Manchester roads, 10, 20 ,30 years. Our mayor hates Walmart but has no alternate plan for that area. We might as well as have elected a monkey for all the good Paul has done for this us in developing that site. Ellisville used to be a city, now it is barely a town and soon will be known as the East St. Louis of West County.

Getting Walmart in here ASAP and then building around it would be a good start.
Have you noticed what has been accomplished recently at Clayton Road and Woods Mill. We need that kind of leadership from our Mayor but alas he's still on training wheels

Building what around it? Other TIF-seeking multi-national big-box stores like at 141 and Manchester? I don't think the Creve Coeur mayor/council had squat to say in Target and Whole Foods locating there. Any more than the previous council had a say in telling Walmart to look at Ellisville. It's all market analysis and decision at the big box corporate level and the targeted location is merely a question of how hard/how much money they have to sink into executing the decision to put in a new store there.

And Clayton and 141 ain't all pretty without your rose-colored glasses. Lamp and Lantern is half-empty and no anchors. The rest of the Target/Whole Foods development has had some churn (Where's the Five Guys? or that French bistro?). And can you tell us if CVS/Mia Sorella/Circle 7/Tide Cleaners/Six North Cafe got any TIF financing? Didn't think so.

The Washington superstore doesn't have *another* Walmart superstore 5 miles away.
And how, exactly, does any Mayor/city council "build around it"? That's not a suggestion, or a plan. That's just wishful thinking. Did Washington also offer Walmart a TIF to "upgrade" their superstore? Where were you in the city council meetings asking why a TIF wasn't offered to KMart to "upgrade" their store, just like an existing retailer (Walmart) in Washington decided to "upgrade"?

When you've got something more realistic to offer than unicorns and rainbows, then people might take you seriously and think you aren't just a bitter old goat. I'm still waiting for the opportunity to re-elect Mayor Paul, to vote out Ms. Anglin soon, and to see exactly how poorly you do in an election if you have the spine to find out if you're more than "all hat and no cattle".

There is already a plan -- the Great Streets initiative. I seem to recall it has a major focus on promoting lots of small local businesses, not spending tax revenues before they're even collected in the form of TIFs on bet-the-farm big box stores. And I've already put forward some alternatives - permanent farmers market, micro-business, pop-up restaurant, food truck park destination, etc. Things that are /unique/, very local, and entrepreneur-friendly. Just because you are too dense or stubborn or probably both to comprehend any other ideas than your own doesn't invalidate them.

My humble opinions, just that.

Mike K

Why would you offer TIF for "upgrades" to a retailer(Kmart) who potentially won't survive the next year?

Having a vision of Ellisville as local/entrepreneur friendly is utopian IMHO. You are going to need to live in Webster Groves or Kirkwood(just not next to the Target or Walmart or Lowes or other big box retailers.)

What of significance if anything has been accomplished with the Great Streets Iniative specfic to Manchester Road Master Plan? The plan is three years old.

Indicating citizens who utilize government assistance programs pay equal tax is factually inaccurate. For instance there is no sales tax on food stamps or WIC items. Kmart isn't even a WIC authorized retailer. Walmart is. Just facts.

Look my point is this. I believe Ellisville is in real danger on continuing on a path that sees retailers abandon the area or eventually close due to closure at the corporate level(not anyones fault specifically) This is going to drive spending and in turn revenues elsewhere. With that said what is the plan? You believe Walmart would hurt the area or are opposed to it based solely on the use of TIF to accomplishment it(I believe you feel both), I believe its needed. The building of the Walmart at the Highlands didn't just build a Walmart it built a Costco, Best Buy, Bed Bath Beyond, Nordstram Rack, etc. All generating revenues and further servicing the community in a variety of ways.

Ignoring that for a moment who is doing a better job in regards to gaining/retaining retailers. Ballwin loses Sears Hardware, replaces it with a thrift store, loses Ultimate Electronics, replaces it with a Big Lots, loses Bed Bath and Beyond, replaces it with Buy Buy Baby. The list goes on and on and on.

I believe TIF's are sometimes the cost of doing business in today's environment, I think the benefit of a Walmart and what it could mean for Ellisville outweighs other concerns and the effects of standing firm on economic principles especially in today's environment. I respect opposing opinions but I don't agree with them.

Finally, I don't know the history that drives the name calling and disrespect for others in previous comments. However, the behavior inevitability makes it way into any debate eliminating civil discord and progress.

"I believe TIF's are sometimes the cost of doing business in today's environment. I think the benefit of a Walmart and what it could mean for Ellisville outweighs other concerns and the effects of standing firm on economic principles especially in today's environment."

You've been conditioned very well to feed billionaires and millionaires more of your hard earned money so they can take it out of state and off shore jobs. You are satisfied with the promise of a few crumbs.

Without a full economic impact study, who knows how much we will actually get?

Why stand firm on economic principles when whoring-out big parcels of the city to the highest bidder seems so much more lucrative?

Glad you're an "ex" resident.

Glad you're an "ex" resident.

As am I Ellisville Liberal, I mean shopper. NIce mouth by the way.

More like Ellisville Libertarian (old school Libertarian)and I call them like I see them. My economic principles aren't conditional.

That probably doesn't fit into your liberal/conservative, black/white, red/blue model.

I find myself less willing to spend my hard earned tax dollars in my home city since the current regime seems bent on giving it away to finance millionaires and billionaires while sticking it to small business people, property owners, older residents and run-of-the mill sales tax payers.

Try to keep it civil, @EllisvilleShopper. @ExEllisvilleResident is giving it a fair shake an like you, calling it like he sees it.

I too understand why TIFs work and there are two sides. Unfortunately, our country has a long, long history of enacting "spending" on the revenue side. That also means no scrutiny, oversight, or justification down the road.

If we took tax breaks and treated them as spending programs - because that's what they are - spending. And included them in the budgets every year, then I think the taxpayers and those running the budgets would have to see every year the drain the tax breaks have an see them for the giveaways that they are.

Unfortunately, the powers that benefit from the current system have every interest in perpetuating it. One need only look at the duopoly party system we have for another example of that observation.

Since Mayor Paul was following this (maybe he left when little mike stunk up the joint), maybe in the future, the taxpayers can be protected by treating TIFs as a "entitlement" spending program and structuring them as budget line items. Face it, that's exactly what it is. And there would be hard numbers behind an answer to "Is this (TIF) program costing or benefiting the taxpayers?" - every year it's on the budget. The current system promotes a "dine and dash" scenario and fails to hold the politicians accountable after passage.

As a side note, I firmly believe that we could "fix" the income tax issue not with "raising taxes on the rich" but by treating the reduced capital gains (unearned income) tax not as the "entitlement program for the rich" that it is, but as a deduction, and therefore subject to the Alternative Minimum Tax rates that were established precisely to curb deduction abuse. End of problem.

Won't happen with the money that's buying politicians these days, and the rich don't want changes to their entitlement programs (Free speech rights for a *company*, criminalizing civil contract disputes, TIFs, lower capital gains tax rates, the Social Security $110K income cap, US military action to protect private economic interests (*cough* Iraq *cough* or merely to settle family beefs when you're the POTUS and CIC), etc.) but are all about eliminating and reducing entitlement programs for the poor, disabled, and elderly.

Mayor Paul got elected on the "NO WAL MART" ticket by people that did not have a city going broke. Those apt owners were glad to sell those buildings . Miost of the residents of Cherry Hill West areold, retired and on fixed incomes and can not pay any more taxes.. We have seen our beauutiful concrete streets turn into ugly black top. one of the bussiest intersections in the county (Manchester and Clarkson., We will see our fantastic police force go by way of the County Police force. All of this because some person wants to show them who is Mayor. Mayor Paul will be long gone and be able to put "Mayor of Ellisville" on his resume. TIF will save the city , WalMart will bring in more small businesses because WalMart is a destination. of the , he is thinking of himself. When election time comes the only people that will run will be the clones of MR. Paul. They want the title to put on their resume along with "Stay at home mom"a " book stores are closing.. Ellisville needs a "GO GETTER" not an inexperienced governmental manager who threatens the residents. How much sales taxes do you think those people in the apartments pay??? The bleeding hearts should rent out their homes to section 8 people aND GIVE THEM SOME EXTRA MONEY. oR BETTER YET, SELL YOUR HOUSE AND MOVE INTO ONE OF THE APARTMENTS.

brownbear- mayor paul is an exceptional leader. he has done so much more for us (just read the news articles on him) than just oppose a wal-mart that most of the people DONT WANT. some dont want to pay 35% of the project costs to bankroll wal-mart. some dont want a Chinese outlet mall in the heart of our city attracting crime and causing traffic congestion. "threatens the residents"? how about "listens to the residents"! he has never threatened anyone. destination? maui is a destination, destin florida is a destination, wal-mart is not a destination. furthermore, small businesses dont flock to wal-mart. that is the craziest thing i have ever heard. also, the city is doing very well under him and not broke or going broke (with or without walmart), please look at the budget online. not all the apartment owners wanted to sell. lastly, i wish i could put 'mayor of ellisville' on my resume as it is an honor. you just cant cure stupid i suppose.

"you just cant cure stupid"

but, you can vote them out of office April 2nd.

Shows how much you know brownbear123, lol!! He is not here to manage the city that is Kevin Bookout and the closings are a reflection of his work. The people you need to be crying about on this feed is Kevin Bookout and Ms. Hood because it their job to MANAGE the city and PLAN the city; it is their actual titles and they are not doing their jobs at all. The mayor is in place to assist with legislation not plan and/or manage the city. As for the Walmart, he was actually trying to stop the TIF not the business development if you knew anything about his campaign. You are a joke.

Looks like Ellisville lost another one, KFC closed. Who's next?

I stand corrected. Still frustrating, at least for me. Not because I eat there a lot.

Although I'm still not sure its Ballwin. Pulled this directly from the Patch."Located in the heart of Ellisville, KFC is always serving up great chicken."

I spent on 30 years managing a $50 million business and must say Mayor Paul is one of the biggest bafoons I have ever run across. What are his plans to develop the Manchester/Clarkson properties? HE HAS NONE. How long must our Ellisville Residents put up with this eyesore? I guess until the Ellisville people wise up and vote this clown out of office and we get a real Mayor that can actually do something.

@Caf - It doesn't matter. It's not the mayor's job to be a developer or win the title of biggest TIF-ho in the county.

That's a property developer's job. However, if their business model just doesn't work without TIF, then maybe they are in the wrong business.

The citizens of Ellisville have spoken - clearly - that we are not interested in TIF-based development. If that means we're not in the race to the bottom, then this community is better for it.

And that is why Mayor Paul is Mayor and you're not, little mike k.

Paul conned the Ellisville people with his anti Walmart speak. They won't make that mistake next time when he is up for election and all they see is that vacant eyesore at clarkson/manchester roads

The reason there has been an eyesore for years is because we don't have anyone to manage the city properly. GET A NEW CITY MANAGER! The mayor has nothing to do with the businesses coming and going, that is a direct reflection Kevin Bookout's job. He gets paid over 100,000 and was trying to increase is severance because actually working for his money is a foreign idea to him. Kevin and his little sidekick Ada Hood need to realize they are failing and single-handedly destroying an entire city.

The Mayor and the council do have control over who is managing and planning the city. They can make changes there and I feel if they don't get rid of Kevin Bookout and Ada Hood, none of them are doing their job in representing us all. I know everyone has an issue with the way the appearance of the city for YEARS....well, the blame is placed directly on the person managing it, Kevin Bookout must go!!

Big Mike K, you wrote:

>>>@Caf - It doesn't matter. It's not the mayor's job to be a developer or win the title of biggest TIF-ho in the county.

>>>That's a property developer's job. However, if their business model just doesn't work without TIF, then maybe they are in the wrong business.<<<

Agreed. But, you have to remember that property owners jack-up their asking prices because they know there is a possibility that developers can get TIF

When municipalities say "NO" to TIF, the cost of commercial property will come down in their area (and even area wide) and any given developer's numbers might work. There would likely be more commercial development without TIF...that's what everyone is holding out for where new construction is concerned.

All TIF does is support artificially inflated asking prices for owners and out-of-wack claims that a developer can't do a project without it.

@Ex Ellisville Resident: Why would you offer TIF for "upgrades" to a retailer(Kmart) who potentially won't survive the next year?

Sorry about the delay. I wasn't talking about offering TIF *now*, I was wondering why Kmart didn't think of using a TIF to spiff up their store before Walmart sucked all the air out of the room.

Walmart doesn't generally significantly increase the retail activity in a given area. They locate where they do precisely to capture what they think is viable enough to support their store from the existing economic retail activity. They certainly don't locate to create a "destination" in any way.

The new outlets going up in the valley? Those are being developed to leverage nearby activity, but their main purpose is to create a new destination for spending money, not take existing spending away from neighboring retail businesses. That is the difference between the valley developments and this Walmart development. A similar argument could be made (somewhat less effectively, though) for Manchester Highlands. However Walmart was displacing their own store down the road in Des Peres, as did Best Buy with their Ellisville store. I say somewhat less effectively for Manchester Highlands, because I'm sure the GameStop across the street feels the pain of having BB and WM as neighbors. In the valley, there was no existing economic activity that was being displaced.

I don't have a problem with TIF conceptually. It is a tool that can be effectively used to create entirely new economic activity where none existed before. Just as thoughtful use of eminent domain can. The problem is that both are too often treated as a "golden hammer" and their benefits to the community have been usurped by developers and property owners to their benefit by falsely claiming they just can't make the project work without it and it has been "baked into" their business model.

Not much different than the Cardinals and their "Ballpark Village" or the Rams and the $700 Million dome upgrade. They're businesses at the end of the day. it is not a community's purpose to guarantee profitability to local businesses under the false color of the "too big to fail" argument.