The story on Mayor Paul by Stephen Deere that appeared yesterday was good too -

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metro/ellisville-mayor-at-odds-with-council-from-day-one/article_aed2bec7-f18d-5d99-931c-65492fd8f5c3.html

My favorite part:

>>>“He campaigned in flip-flops and wore a sandwich board on election day,” Pirrello said last spring.<<<

Yes...truly appalling...

Well...Murray flip-flopped on her TIF position. What's worse? Wearing them or doing it?

No mention of the condition of his lawn during the campaign.

Who reads the Post-Dispatch? I really like the "government gone wild" by the Post...can you think Obama? God, do we have a stupid electorate. No money will be given to Sansone or Wal-Mart. The TIF will be by the SALES TAX. A portion of the tax will be used to pay for the cost of building the corner....you can vote by not shopping at Wal-Mart and by the way Chelsea, you have recorse (remember the recall effort by the anti Walmart crowd?) you can vote. We had a vote, the mayor has 1 vote (he/she is not a dictator) and the others council memeber have a vote, the vote was 5-2 in favor....get over it. You must live int Clarkchester apartments...a group of people that do not own the property. Property owners may sell their property at any time, I believe, in America. Non property owners do not have a say in the argument in sale of the property.

>>>No money will be given to Sansone or Wal-Mart. The TIF will be by the SALES TAX. <<<

The sales tax we pay isn't "money" ??? That's one interesting, if not erroneous, distinction.

>>> A portion of the tax will be used to pay for the cost of building the corner....you can vote by not shopping at Wal-Mart <<<

You do realize that the Walmart is planned for the middle of the block...Directly across from City Hall...Not on the corner of Manchester and Kiefer Creek Rds. (where many people have been told it will be built)...The two largest auto dealerships will remain standing...You do understand this???

The project directly on the corner is designated as separate area.

>>>by the way Chelsea<<<

I am not Chelsea...???

>>>you have recorse (remember the recall effort by the anti Walmart crowd?) you can vote.<<<

The Article 9 Recall provision has been found "unconstitutional" per MO state law. Currently, the voters of Ellisville have no recourse to remove elected officials by recall.

Missouri third class city case law, rather than charter city case law, was mistakenly applied to decide the recall case. A number of attorneys noted this. Hard to say what would happen on Appeal.

Again, you seem confused.

quagmire. pitiful.

Schmidt,
You obviously can't read...if you (not we) do not shop at Wal-Mart you do not pay the tax, get it? The TIF will be paid through a portion of the slaes tax over a 20 or 25 year period. It is not tax payers money "given" to Wal-Mart...it is sales taxes (it is a tax that only people that buy stuff pay), a user tax...if you shop there, you pay the tax and if you don't, you don't pay the tax, duh.
What has the positon of where the store will be built on any converstion? ...that's a new one and laughable, indeed. But you conveniently forget the attempt, that is my point the attempt. Confused, obviously the judge that ruled in favor of the city must be an idiot, right? Ellisville did not violate any law or statute....get over it.

robert kerr,

>>>What has the positon of where the store will be built on any converstion? ...that's a new one and laughable, indeed.<<<

So, I take it you really aren't aware that the Walmart is planned to be built directly across from City Hall and not on the corner - the location of the two biggest eyesores?

That idea is laughable?

You might want to go to City Hall and ask to look at a map of which land parcels are in RPA-1 which is Walmart and RPA-2 which is "to be determined" (which some are calling "Sansone 2 - Son of Walmart."

Hmmm...regarding your theory that this is somehow "voluntary" funding of a private project, because only the people who want to pay for the project will shop at the Walmart, I counter that voters is Ellisville didn't want to "be volunteered" and made that clear at the Town Hall meetings in 2010 and at the ballot box in 2011 and at nearly every City Council meeting since then.

Schmit
It does not mater where the Walmart is going to built on that corner...it is going to be built (it is huge corner) Me thinks, you live in the apartments and since you do, you have no say in the matter regarding private property...you do not own the apartment property ..it could be called Son of Sam for all I care. More businesses will be on the corner besides Wal-Mart. Is it not volunatary when you spend YOUR money? Do you not understand economics? You do decide what you do with your money, right? The money (sales tax) paid by customers of Wal-Mart and the other business in the project will pay the TIF, and if you do not shop there, you do not pay the TIF, it is really that simple.
Let me explain this again...
We had a vote, the candidate that won the mayors office was against the Wal-Mart, the council is made up of 7 people (including the mayor), the mayor has one vote (the election was not a referendum on Wal-Mart, the election was to select members of the council and mayor), you with me so far? Then a vote was taken in the council after debate? You with me? The vote was 5-2 in favor. My question is what do you not understand about how elections work in America? Your argument is a straw man. You lost the vote and the court case.

Schmidt

Is that all you have? If you can't understand clear arguments and basic "logic" confuses you, then I rest my case. Your argument does not hold water. "Facts are stubborn things' John Adams.

Mike K and Scmidt,

Yes, they represent their zone of constituents and the mayor acted and voted in the way he stated he would. He is but one vote out of the whole and by the way, Mr Mayor only recieved 750+ votes, hardly a majority of the total voters in Ellisville.
So for you Schmidt, you have already lost the argument because you do not undertand basic economics and the structure of American politics. Yes, bring in the lawyers thats a great solution...are you paying the lawyer Schmidt?

We, the taxpaying citizens of Ellisville are paying the lawyers, Mr. Kerr. $200/hr each for two separate lawyers, and no caps, and now the remaining council is proposing hiring a PR firm (why?). The voters have been extremely clear about what they want their elected council members to do in office - no TIF, no walmart). The mayor won the election by a landslide. Michelle Murray didn't even come close as a runner up. And in a month, she'll be a has-been small town council member whose legacy will be a disgrace to her neighbors and community, along with Anglin and Pieper.

If he is "but one vote", why is the council even bothering with this collossal waste of this city's valuable tax dollars? Upon information and belief, I can't tell whether the district council members are corrupt or incompetent. Maybe both?

Mike
Please see my previous post to Schmidt, his argument, like yours, is weak and redundant. The mayor revieved 750 votes, but that does not matter. He was elected and I accepted his election. Again, the mayor has ONE vote, not every vote. The vote was 5-2 in favor (do you accept the election of the other council memebers?). I am not talikng about what has occured recently, which you and Schmidt keep harping on. I am talking about the action in favor of Wal-Mart. Your side lost the vote and the court case, on Walmart, I am not sure what your points are. Your side lost. Take off your rose colored glasses, politics is a full contact sport.

Caffeneinated,
Take a chill pill and drop the energy drink!
It is not about being gracious, in America we accept the free election (as long as the people are elected fairly) of people. Now as for your point on constituent(s). Yes you are absoluty correct in your premise, but the council voted in FAVOR and once elected, they have the option of voting accordinly to his//hers position(s). Your (constituents) responsiblity is, if you do not like the way the council voted, to vote in the next election and not use the courts (that is what happened first by the anti-Walmart crowd) to overthrow the council. I comprehend very well how our political system works, thank you. Yes, I know I am ignorant, but I can read and comprehend very well. Your side lost, politically and in the courts, so I am not sure if you undertand plain english.

Caffeinated

Oh now, you begin to name call, ouch. I am glad you can you read the dictionary. I have said nothing about the current issue of the mayor, I have been responding to your (and Schmidt) ridiculous attempts to justify your posiitions on Walmart. When your agrument falls flat and you can't artticulate (look that one up) a position (always changing) based on facts, you resort to the fall back position of the uninformed voter...you have lost the argument. Me thinks you live the apartments also. Politics is full contact sport.

Caffeinated,
Put down the energy drink before you hurt yourself.
Is that all you have? Nice argument. Weak.
I think he should be recalled, only if the charges against him are true and I do not know, one way or the other, if he has commited any offence. But an investigation is in order. If the Mr mayor attempted to fire an employee of the city and he does not have that authority, then absolutely he should thrown out on his a##. Heck, I would get rid of the mayor because he throws his yard debris over his fence (he threw the waste into the woods until the city put no dumping signs up) and I have to walk by it when I walk my dogs. i would also get rid of him because he wishes to gentrify our area. Do you know what that term means...go look it up in your Funk and Wagnal. I do not want my city to use gentrification to justify economic ignorance...hows that argument for you, can you handle it or am I still a hyp·o·crite. Let the building and economic activity begin...maybe you can get a job at Walmart.

Caffeinated,

Chill out, we have already covered that issue...the election. We had an election already. We do not do refferedums in Ellisville, we have elections...they are the referendum. That is not what gentrification means...I haved saved you some time:

"the process of renewal and rebuilding accompanying the influx of middle-class or affluent people into deteriorating areas that often displaces poorer residents"

Now, I have lived in the area since 1971 and Manchester is a thriving, bustling economic dynamo (you do drive your bicycle up and down Man. road) of business. I have lived and live in amoungst the middle class everyday here. You see gentrification gets rid of the poor people. Then the questions is: where will they go? Do you not see the great wealth you live around? The corner of Clarkson and Manchester is no different. Have you noticed the empty buildings in Ellisville lately and not in Ballwin? Your argument, as is Schmidt's, is to say that every citizen will being paying Walmart and Sansone to build the area, when in reality, the building is paid by a % of sales tax gererated, over time. So essence, if you will not shop at Walmart, then you will not pay any money for the building...it is realy that simple. Unfortunately, we don't teach economics anymore (see Obama followers)

Caffie,
Apartment dwellers do not own property, property owners do (wealth)...we don't have a collective (see Cuba, the Old Soviet Union, China, N Korea, ect). You see gentrification will get rid of those poor people living in the apartments. What do you think will be built there if not the Walmart? Or do you think the corner should look like East Germany when the Belin wall came down? Your argument is against the Walmart because of some absurd thought that it "brings" in the undesriable (poor),(because the poor bring down property values) hence the support for gentrification. Get with it man, give me your best shot...you could'nt hit water if you fell out of boat. Am I debating the Mayor, Caffie?

Caffie,
No, Mr Mayor wishes to bring gentrification TO our city. You build a business to create other business, duh. There will be other business on the corner besides Walmart...it is called economic activity. I am a capitalists and bases in property rights. Walmart has every right to build on the corner. No Ellisville had an election, we do not have an oligarchy. The vote was in favor of the building, end of story. You will not pay the TIF if you do not shop there...but you will deny my opportunity to do so? Bobbie, that' what my mother called me..I love that name and I do not hide behind a pseudonym. Here we go round in circles.....

No, Caffie.
You must be union or anti-capitalists, right? The people that OWN the property (apartments, non owners) make that call regarding THEIR property. No, it realy is simple, a % (2%-4%) of the sales tax GENERATED will pay the TIF over the course of 25 years. If you do not shop at that corner, you, personally, will not pay a dime of TIF and that is what you are against right? The increased sales on the corner will INCREASE revenue, which then logic states, the city will have ample tax reciepts. I just went out for a momment and I passed 3 large buildings EMPTY in Ellisville ( I have one big one on my block). Can you give me another business that is going to develop the corner, of course you can't. Oh, now it is diverting $ from the coffers of th city...how rich. You have to have a better argument than that....take an economics class, please. Man, you and Schimdt have to have a beter argument than the you are attempting to pass as intelligence. Your side lost, game over.

Caffie....you really don't need to repeat my ideas, I already know them. I do know who I am arguing with....a person that is Anti-Walmart. If the property owners wish to sell the property (conservative principle) to Sansone or Walmart, what is the issue. Yes, the TIF money is transfered to a company to pay some of the cost of building the buildings. Damn, your bright. So, if you understand your point, then, when you do not shop there, you don't pay the TIF or tax, right? Your conservatvie right do so. Every conservative principle and what are those, can you help me because I am a conservative. Hogwash, what we need is economic activity...troglodytes indeed!

Caffie,
I had asked you not repeat my arguments, I already know them. I perfer National Review. Crony capitalism is like Soylyndra? You see, that is taking my forced paid tax dollars and giving it to a company, by the federal govenment.. I don't shop at Kmart so I don't pay the tax. The will of the people, hmmm? Ellisville had an electon, the mayor gets one vote, there are 7 on the board, a vote was taken 5-2 in favor. Subvert like Hugo Chavez (thank goodness he is dead). You mean we should'nt have elections? You see you must go back to Madison and his theory on "mobs." America does not have mob rule...we have checks and balances. The check in our situation is an election. Your side lost, your side tried to use the legal system to overturn that election, you lost that argument also. We have another election, you get to vote and have one vote. I do not know Mr Perrillo or the "gang." No I stick to priciples. I am a capitalist and as a capitalist, I support a private (private property See Locke and founders) company to build on an empty lot on the corner of Clarkson and Manchester. (It should never be used for housing, see gentrification). I believe in economic activity (see Adam Smith) and you should not determine where I can and can't shop. (highly conservative principle). You should really take my history course.

>>>I support a private (private property See Locke and founders) company to build on an empty lot <<<

Should read:

"I support extortion of private property using the Threat of Eminent Domain granted to millionaire developers by our local government."

Fixed it.

Hey, welcome Smidt are taking over Caffie? You up to the challange?
No, I believe that I should be able to shop wherever I want and companies should be able to build on property (private, the city does not own the land). They (Walmart) made a pitch to the city (the only one) and it was accepted. See previous posts on the elections above ect...your side lost. I sense you have an issue with wealthy people, Schimdt. The corner is empty and looks like East Germany or Cuba. It is called development and economic activity. You do exercise that liberty right Schmidt? If you choose not to shop there, that is the magic hand (Adam Smith), you do not pay the % of sales tax that goes to build the project. It is very simple when brought down to the common donminator of low information voters or people that believe just because they live in an apartment complex (renters) they own the land, they don't. Maybe you can get a job at the Walmart. I must have missed the threats!

>>>to build on an empty lot on the corner of Clarkson and Manchester. (It should never be used for housing, see gentrification).<<<

Should read:

"I don't know the difference between a corner with empty buildings and the middle of the block with inhabited apartments. I don't get out much."

>>>I believe in economic activity (see Adam Smith) and you should not determine where I can and can't shop. (highly conservative principle).<<<

Should read:

"I expect government to subsidize my addiction to cheap Chinese crap with taxpayer dollars which I believe is not money. I pretend to be a conservative when I am in fact a fascist crony capitalist."

>>>You should really take my history course.<<<

Should read:

"You should listen to me because I say Locke, Madison and Adam Smith...who, if alive, would beat me about the head for the way I have convoluted their writings."

Fixed it again.

Schimtty,
I teach history my good man, have been for a long time. As I explained to your buddy, Caffie, please do not copy my comments because I already know them. Ah, we are getting down to nitty gritty. You oppose the Walmart because they sell products from China. I don't care where the products are made, I only care that they are inexpensive (my economic interest not yours) and readily available. You should really read some of Adam Smith's ideas on free trade and Madison on pursuing economic interests (Federalist Paper #10) . Where did you learn your economics? Enligthen me would you? You see private property is the critical component of freedom. A group of people who do not own property may not make the decision as to what should be done with property that is owned by another. Yes, I am fascist, is that all you got? Your losing the argument. I can recomend some good books.

Caffie and Schmitty,

game, set, match.

Robert Kerr: "A group of people who do not own property may not make the decision as to what should be done with property that is owned by another."

So I take it that you are vehemently opposed to the use of Eminent Domain, no?

As in Walmart and Sansone, in collusion with the CIty of Ellisville city council, acting in obvious and overwhelming contrariness to the voters that elected them, using Eminent Domain to TAKE the property of the Clarkchester owners, against their will.

The Clarkchester property owners are *not* selling their property to Walmart. The City is TAKING it, by abuse of Eminent Domain.

That is but one part of the outrage of the voters and citizens of Ellisville.

So, do you believe what you say you do, or are you a hypocrite? If you truly believe what you wrote, then you should stand firmly against the Walmart/Sansone development of RPA2 on that basis.

I accept your resignation.

Mikie,
Please don't repeat my answers I already know what I have said. Please view your response....no property is being taken. The property owners are selling the property to another individual or group. Can you point to me where the property owners have stated that their property is being taken? I have not heard one peep from them..I only hear from people like you that do not own the property. I am not outraged. God, are you going to call me a hypocrite, like Caffie? Wow that is original. I am for business and economic activity. Go back to your bunker. Me thinks Mikie, Caffie and Smitty are the same, probably the Mayor.

Caffie,
Put down the energy drink. I already know what I have said. Context..is that so you can use someone else's intelligence? You funny....

Oh by the way Caffie you can come to one of my classes at Wildwood...your more than welcome...check it out. Uneducated, thats rich!

Yes, I know that things must be repeated to you just in case you forget.

Yes, I do. American and European history, International Relations and Politcal Science.

Is that all you got?

Caffie,
The above has nothing to do with the Walmart. The building will be built and you may stand out on the corner of Clarkson and Manchester and hold your sign proclaiming your support for the little the people.

Caffie,
Your arguments are boring. No substance or depth. You sound like a Brit? Bloody terrible? Not really, my classes are full as ever. Remember, we got rid of those people a long time ago.

You funny

Caffie,
Elderberries, what the hell does that mean? Throw that money away, they were liberal.

Very nice Mikie...
it's "I want a a shrubbery"....Monte Python Circus, John Cleves, .....British humor. Ha Ha! But the Walmart is coming, end of story.

At least Professor Kerr has a job. All E Schmidt does is sit at home and collect her welfare checks. Caffeinated and Mike K lurk in the shadows afraid to come out in the light to be exposed for the tools they are.