K James - I don't believe he is trying to stop a major development. He is trying to stop Wal-mart and Sansone Group from receiving TIF financing to do so. If Wal-Mart wants to build in Ellisville let them do so - on their own dime just as they have in Florissant and High Ridge. Both cities were told "we won't build if we don't get TIF Financing" yet they did. By the way, has anyone asked themselves why they are only planning development for the land already occupied by business and families, not the empty space where the car dealerships were? NO plans have been presented for the already vacant area. Shouldn't they start there?

Just J - The city council was resistant to a big box store on the corner lots. The preference there is a "town center" type of development.

And as to what is being discussed, that's somewhat problematic; Mayor Elect Paul's campaign signs didn't say "no TIF", they said "no Wal-Mart." A very strong argument can be made that the voters who voted him into office were voting for no Wal-Mart.

But even at the lightly-attended candidates' forum, Candidate Paul made the comment that he wasn't against Wal-Mart, just against the TIF. (I remember, because I turned to the person sitting next to me and said, "Well, then why do all of his signs say 'No Wal-Mart'?") Now, he's making noise like he wants to weigh the pros and cons. ("what are our options of what we woud lose or could lose if we didn't move forward with this...")

K James,

It's been my experience that once a TIF is approved, it's a like trying to stop a freight train with a pea shooter. The proponents use the momentum to mow down thoughtful consideration or dissent.

If you have been around the block like I have, you know this. But, I think you do know this.

>>>But until a developer gets a committment from a community there is no need to make those expendatures.<<<

Oddly, I think this is backwards. Independent studies should take place first and on the developer's dime if they are so convinced the project will bear out to be a net positive...and then in the case of TIF, stand behind the project by forfeiting some or all of their developer fee [clawback] if it doesn't perform as expected.

Do we have a "clawback" agreement with this TIF?...or even Community Benefits Agreement?

In not, it borders on financial malfeasance to commit a taxpayer subsidy in the form of "free financing" and not ask assurances and accountability.

And speaking of "big bad Walmart."

In 2009 it settled a Missouri class action law suit where employees alleged the stores made them work off the clock on their lunch and rest break times and also forced them to work unpaid overtime. Walmart fought the creation of the class in court knowing if they won, individual employees wouldn’t bother to sue. It was first filed in 2001 and grew to cover 128 Missouri stores and 285,000 employees.

>>>The Missouri case is based on statements from numerous employees and former employees of Wal-Mart who report being forced to routinely work without pay -- some of them for 10 or more hours a week -- so the company could avoid paying them overtime.

"What sets the Missouri case apart," Long [the attorney for the employees] said, "is that, for the first time, Wal-Mart was forced by the court to provide outside access to its electronic database. Based on Wal-Mart's own data, it's abundantly clear they're forcing employees collectively to work many thousands of hours each month without pay. What they're doing is illegal. It's not fair to the men and women who work for Wal-Mart."<<<

What’s so amusing about the Missouri case is that Walmart’s own internal security systems which require employees to log in and out of devices, like cash registers etc.., was used evidence against them.

Walmart settled the MO case for $90M. They had to. They got caught red-handed by their own security systems.

>>> talks about his learning curve, this is a problem with electing someone who has zero experience with city government into a mayoral position.<<<

Hmmm…the learning curve.

You mean like learning to listen to the voters when they have said “No” to a Walmart TIF three different times, three different ways over three different years?

I think Mayor-elect Paul is making his way along the upside of the slope quite well.

Alexandra, I agree that the article is "much ado about nothing", and probably shouldn't have even been written. I wonder which of the two participants spoke to Mr. Castle about it? I'm assuming it was Mayor Elect Paul, since he's the one that's quoted throughout.

You observe that "At this point, the Mayor ELECT has not even had access to the financial records to make or consider options without complete understanding about the city." Wasn't it, then, irresponsible of him to campaign on a "No Wal-Mart" platform, if he couldn't accurately gauge how rejecting the development would affect the city's finances? (BTW, he did have full access to the city budget prior to now, as do you and I...those documents are public record.)

And, finally, you say "Stopping a major debt upon the city not development by using the TIF." Can you explain to me how the TIF is a major debt upon the city?

@ Charles Pavlack: If you read the article, it is obvious that Mayor Elect Paul was clarifying the conversation to Chase Castle when he stated "We were talking about how it would be awful to have 2-minute response times opposed to whatever the county provides," Paul said. In that moment, it is known that this article was not originally stemmed from the Mayor Elect.

As for the irresponsibility, the consideration of a TIF to assist in the removal of our own residents for a multi-billion dollar corporation is beyond irresponsible. It is irresponsible for the city to bestow millions of debt dollars upon the city if parameters within the proposal are not met. Not to mention compromising our vulnerable credit rating to fund such a project. The proposals terms and conditions still are not completely ironed out, but I assure you that there are various ways debt will be incurred. You nor I will know until the very end and at that point it will be too late to do anything.

As a side note, wouldn't it be great if Walmart would consider placing a 'Walmart Neighborhood Market' in place of the Bestbuy that will be closing shortly. We have Walmarts and Targets every where at this point. The population is not dense enough to support such a concentration of the same big box stores within a couple miles along side our local businesses. Walmart is re-evaluating its approach nationwide, and should at this point re-evaluate its approach in our city. Market Analysis.

Alexandra,

You are also right to be concerned that this could be a major debt on the city.

So, can anyone with authority in Ellisville City government guarantee that the taxpayers will NEVER suffer an increase in real estate tax levy or be forced to increase sales taxes if this project fails to meet projections and the TIF revenues are insufficient to service the debt? Or that shortfall on the debt service will NEVER come out of general revenue or any reserve fund?

I’d like to hear that guarantee and explanation, because I’ve read where the EXACT OPPOSITE happens...in MO…like in Raytown...(and the situation I mentioned above.)

There are other such examples of failed retail TIFs.

The bonds rarely fail. They just restructure them...and suck the taxpayers dry with increased real estate levies, increased sales taxes or raid the municipal treasury.

On the Ballwin TIF (if memory serves) they agreed to pay only if the TIF doesn't reach the projected amount and to date it has exceed that each year and is projected to do so again this year.

Also, as I stated somewhere else the last audited financials for Raytown showed the TIF generated $1.4m is taxes. $700k went to the TIF fund and the other $700k was used by the city to pay down other debt. That TIF is set up that the money is used for the TIF and existing city debt (can not be used in it's general fund).

There is no doubts TIFs fail. There is also no doubt that TIFs succed as well.

Michael, one of the things that Mayor Paul posted during his campaign was a reference to the 2012 Ballwin budget that contained an entry making payments to the TIF bonds from the city's general fund. When I inquired about it with our city, they said there was an agreement that they'd divert at least a percentage of their revenue under the TIF back to bond repayment. I only know what I was told when I asked someone to explain why those payments were being made. I do know the person I spoke to spoke to someone in Ballwin.

And again, there is a much-linked article which discussed payments Raytown made toward their bonds due to the Wal-Mart not opening on time. Again, a specific agreement they had that doesn't apply in Ellisville.

I’ll use an analogy regarding the heinous threat of eminent domain and the capricious nature of so-called “blighting’ criteria —

A government [City of Ellisville] says to an older person [Clarkchester Apt.], who has a few wrinkles and little gray hair [so-called “blight”], “We’re decided to destroy you [threat of eminent domain] to make way for someone new and seemingly more productive [taxpayer financed Walmart], so we can save money [increased sales taxes? minus loss of jobs, business closures and failures, loss of recirculated dollars in the community]. You can fight it [lengthy, expensive legal battle] but, we always win because the game is rigged against you [no real recourse]…and you and your attorney know that.

So, you can choose a slow death by a thousand cuts [hard way], with all the messy bleeding and screaming, but you’ll die anyway. Or, you can choose a bullet to the head [easy way], go out quick and quiet, and we’ll give your family $100 to pay for your funeral.”

Is this any kind of choice at all for person who has been backed into a corner? Of course it isn’t.

And I have yet to hear you comment on the fact that the City of Ellisville recognizes those facts…that eminent domain is dangerous and destructive process… and has passed a resolution to limit the use eminent domain by private developers on homeowners for a private development project, but failed to protect residential landlords and their tenants.

Speak to that.

I wrote--

>>>A government [City of Ellisville] says to an older person [Clarkchester Apt.], who has a few wrinkles and little gray hair [so-called “blight”],<<<

I would like to add "moderate weight gain and balding" to the "older person" in the analogy....so I've got nearly everyone's attention. I ran out of characters in the post below.

If parameters are not met, the debt always falls some where and it will fall on the city. Where is it going to go? If a person charges up a credit card and it is not paid as agreed, what happens? There will be collection, and it will be far more painful than just not entering into the debt potential situation. Wal-mart is going to develop in O'fallon, at first proposed with a TIF, and then it was removed and the project is moving forward. The city does not need to get involved in the free market.

Using your analogy, Alexandra, if you have a credit card and don't pay the bill, the credit card company can't come after your landlord to collect, unless he's co-signed for the card. As was made clear at the meeting on Wednesday (which I think you said you were at), the city is not backing the bonds that will support the TIF, so if the bond payments are not paid, the debt doesn't come back on us, it goes to Mr. Sansone, or whoever backs the bonds.

And can you name one TIF in West County that has failed to meet its targets?

Charles you wrote--

>>>When I inquired about it with our city, they said there was an agreement that they'd divert at least a percentage of their revenue under the TIF back to bond repayment.<<<

So, if there is no legal liability for the City of Ellisville on the bond debt service, then why did the city agree to divert at least a percentage of their revenue under the TIF back to bond repayment?

Again, why? Why indebt ourselves when it is not necessary?...and not required by state statute?

Something about this stinks.

Is this financial malfeasance?

I'd like someone in authority to explain this.

I'm sorry. My comment obviously contained a pronoun that confused you. My entire comment is below, with the pronoun replaced with the word BALLWIN. Ellisville has made no such agreement. If I understood correctly, they have agreed to some pass-through, to keep the other taxing districts "whole".

"Michael, one of the things that Mayor Paul posted during his campaign was a reference to the 2012 Ballwin budget that contained an entry making payments to the TIF bonds from the city's general fund. When I inquired about it with our city, they said there was an agreement that BALLWIN would divert at least a percentage of their revenue under the TIF back to bond repayment. I only know what I was told when I asked someone to explain why those payments were being made. I do know the person I spoke to spoke to someone in Ballwin."

If you read the comment in the context of my discussion with Michael Rhodes regarding the difference between the Ballwin TIF, the meaning should have been clear. I'm sorry that it wasn't.

But you were at the Council meeting two weeks ago when the City Attorney said all of this, so I don't understand why you're still questioning it. Frankly, I don't care.

All of this said, I answered your question because it was directed at me, and based on a misreading of something I had written previously. As with Alexandra earlier this week, I have grown tired of the talking in circles, so I'm withdrawing from commenting on the Patch.

Oh I am. That is why I live in Ballwin. Just the thought of having Ellisvillians be part of Ballwin turns my stomach (just kidding). Just a discussion topic and something to consider.

I don't really consider it a likely option (atleast not at this time). Look at how long there has been talk of St. Louis City and St. Louis County merging (please no to that thought).

Alexandra: What effects Ellisville will impact Ballwin (directly and/or indirectly). For some reason you appear to have the impression that Ellisville is on an island by itself and what happens in Ellisville will not matter to those around it. That is not the case and a very narrow sighted position you are taking.

Our city governments are different and I applaud you for knowing that. I would need you to explain why my comments do not apply based on that fact.
Not sure how my ideas are disjointed and do not apply to Ellisville. Perhaps you can provide examples.

Another item to consider since you may not be aware is that the TIF issue will impact St. Louis County and Rockwood Schools through taxes collected. I am a resident of both those districts and have a vested interest based on that. Please explain how my opionion is of lesser value than yours and should be discredited?

Alexandra: Have you had an opportunity to review my questions in response to your personal attack on me?

Michael, I did not 'personally attack you'. This is an online forum and I merely stated my position, which opposed yours. I did not use abusive remarks so we are crystal clear; if anyone uses abusive language I am sure it would be flagged as inappropriate. I intentially decided not to respond to you to avoid aggressive interaction that I sensed on the horizon; not from my end. Anyhow, have a great day and I hope you keep your online debates light-hearted! =)

Alexandra: Not sure how this, "It is official, everyone should discredit anything you say moving forward. This time you definitely put your foot in your mouth. ", is not considered a personal attack against me.

My post back to you was to clarify why you think my opinion was not welcome. If you have read any of my other posts I have never attacked or gotten personal with another poster. When I am questioned (as you did) I attempt to clairfy why.

Based on your replay I will go ahead and anwser your question below.

Michael, I apologize for upseting you. It appears the Ellisville situation clearly concerns you and thank you for caring so much about a city that is near your city.We will have to agree to disagree on many issues. Have a great day!

Alexandra, I don't think I've "lashed out" at Mayor Paul. In another topic, I gave reasons, prior to the election, why I thought he was a poor choice for mayor. Since the election, I've consistently congratulated him and said I hope he does well.

If you're concerned with the structure of our city government, then you should propose a referendum to change the City Charter. It's been in place for almost 20 years, and has served the city well, so I'm not sure that you'll get any traction. What specifically are your concerns?

The mixed-use properties you describe are envisioned for the city, probably closer to the actual corner of Manchester and Kiefer Creek, in what is being called the "City Center" area right now. But the FACT is that when the property being developed was sent out for proposal, no one came in to propose a mixed use development. There were a number of developers who inquired, but all were looking to bring in Wal-Mart. When they found out that Wal-Mart had committed to using Sansone for the development, none of them submitted proposals (this is according to Mr. Sansone, at the meeting, and no one contradicted him).

The city can only work with what is proposed to them. And what has been proposed to them, in this down economy, is a Wal-Mart. No one that opposes it has another project that's ready to proceed. And Wal-Mart would not be proposing to build there if they thought it would underperform.

In general terms I support the TIF as I see it as a "optional" tax. As in those who choose to shop at that location pay for it. Not only do I shop at Wl-Mart I think it will be good for Ellisville and the surronding communities. I even have an example why. Just two weeks ago I need to get my son a jacket. Wal-Mart did not have any so I drove to Kohls. They also did not have any. I then drove to Target (should have stopped there after Wal-Mart) where I located one. One item that you would have thought Wal-Mart and Kohls would have had. Target gained a sale while the others lost. As a consumer it is nice to have options. I think some businesses will benefit from a Wal-Mart and yes others will suffer (Kmart).

Yes. The CC heard from just one resident who is apparently "for" it. He is in the vast minority. Every other resident has spoken against it.

You are either truly naive or merely pretending to be regarding the threat of eminent domain. Perhaps neither, since you sit on Ellisville Planning and Zoning and voted for the Walmart TIF as Chair of the Ellisville TIF Commission.

It is the gun pointed at the head of property owners to get the to comply.

Just case I am wrong, I'll build an equation since the analogy failed.

TIF=Threat of Eminent Domain=Rigged Game Against Property Owners=Long Expensive Legal Battle If They Fight=Property Owners Always Lose Based on Capricious Blighting Standards=Wasted Time and Money for Property Owners.

It is 30 years of TIF abuse against homeowners and the waste of taxpayer dollars to merely move the retail and sales tax base around the county that made the Missouri State Senate unanimously pass SB 721.

Go explain to the state legislature that this is a “fair” process. I, and most of the people posting to this board, know better.

You also pretend not to understand that “confidentiality agreements” attached to optional sales agreements based on TIF can be very “gagging.” I think you are smarter than that.

And again, speak to the issue that the Ellisville City Council protects homeowners from the threat of eminent domain for private economic development, but not residential landlords or their tenants.

Perhaps the difficulty in contacting the City Manager comes because, in an effort to hold down costs in the city, he no longer has a secretary (the previous one retired, and the position was not backfilled).

The sign code is not the fault of the city planner; it was approved by the City Council. She's just enforcing what the council has told her to do.

You said in a different post that Ellisville has to have a character of its own. I agree, and part of that is enforcing codes. If you drive down Manchester, you can tell where Ellisville ends and Ballwin begins, if you look close enough. It's in the nature of the signage and the presence of trees along the road at regular intervals.

I was part of the council that hired Mr. Bookout as city manager. He had been hired as assistant city manager by his predecessor. Ms Hood was hired by that same person, who wasn't a great city manager, but made a number of really great hires. And yes, I consider them both friends.

But part of being a friend, or even a supporter, is in telling someone when they're not cutting it. Just ask Council Member Pirrello how often I've pulled him aside, both when I was on the council with him, and after, and told him I thought he'd handled something incorrectly.

I just don't see that in either of these cases.

'Chew on', interesting start to a professional conversation. Anyhow, a variance to ensure OUR businesses can succeed is in the best interest of our community. A sign vs. a building at a disadvantage, but it is our responsiblity to support our companies. Not fund, as in the Wal-Mart situation, but support/assist a company that has asked for nothing.

I'm not sure what you mean by the city funding Wal-Mart. I assumed from our conversation that you understood how TIF worked. The only people who would be funding Wal-Mart are the people that shop there. The only taxes which go to pay the TIF are one half of the new taxes generated by the Wal-Mart (over and above what little tax revenue there is now from the site).

And there was a variance for the sign code for the bowling alley on the agenda for the Architecture Review Board last Wednesday, but no representative from the bowling alley showed up, so it was continued to the first meeting in May. I can't speak for the applicant, but I would think that if I was trying to get the city to give me a variance on something, the least I could do would be to show up. Hopefully, it was a miscommunication.

I'm not on that committee, so I don't get a vote, but I would think that the bowling alley, moreso than many businesses in our community, would be ripe for just such a variance; it's been there longer than the current sign code has been in place, and really does suffer for people not knowing where it is.

Full disclosure: I frequent the bowling alley. I'm not much of a bowler, but both my wife and daughter are, so I'm there usually at least once a week, at least during the school year.

That is fantastic! Nothing overwhelming I hope, and to be quit honest the Great Streets initiative is the least of our concerns. Ellisville's recovery should be our major concern, because the surrounding cities are not suffering nearly as bad. Again, adjusting our focus on what direction the city should go in possibly should be up for discussion.

Agreed, Alexandra, but as long as we can make some of the improvements with grant money via the GSI, we should. That takes one more line item away from budget things we have to worry about.

>>>it is your landlord who is selling out your apartment and not the city of Ellisville. <<<

Don't even pretend that the city is not aiding and abetting this "legalized extortion." This kind of abuse is why the state legislature is trying to put a stop to it.

The majority of owners have a gun to their head with the threat of eminent domain. If the developer didn't have this weapon to use, none of us would be having this conversation.

This is what happens to business owners and landlords who fight it.

>>>Homer Tourkakis: A dentist in the City of Arnold who fought the taking of his business all the way to the state Supreme Court, Tourkakis ultimately lost his battle against eminent domain, and was forced to sell his property. However, Tourkakis has since opened a new dental office, Eminent Dental.<<<

http://showmeinstitute.org/eminent-domain-apr12

Do you not get they have a gun to their head because it is a TIF proposal and it's a rigged game?...or did you not see the mention of the dentist who tried to fight it and took it all the way to the State Supreme Court and lost?

So, are you saying that adult Ellisville residents have no rights or say in city government? Only property owners?

How very quaint and 18th century of you.

[The last I checked, adult Ellisville residents can vote...renters and homeowners alike.]

You've just demonstrated that you are as politically tone-deaf as the majority of the city council.

It's everybody's fight...and more are joining day by day.

For your reference as times have changed.

In order to vote in Missouri, you must:

Be a U.S. citizen

Be a Missouri resident

Be at least 18 years old by the day of the election

You must also be registered in the jurisdiction of your domicile before the election.

You cannot vote if you:

Have been declared incapacitated

Are imprisoned

Were convicted of a felony or misdemeanor related to voting

Are on probation or parole after a felony conviction

I think you're overstating it quite a bit, Katie. The residents of Clarkchester certainly have "skin in the game", due to the fact that they're the ones that are going to have to relocate. And no amount of argument is going to convince Ms Schmidt that Ellisville is not evicting her from her home. And I certainly believe that some of the landlords in question have told their renters that they agreed to sell because they didn't want to fight Eminent Domain. But if they're that concerned about their residents, I reiterate that I'm surprised that some of them have not come forward and said "Yes, I signed a contract to sell. I really didn't want to, but I was afraid that I'd eventually be forced to sell via Eminent Domain, so I figured I'd cut my losses early." Not one of them.

That said, I don't know how much more I can offer to the conversation. I've said my piece, and attempted to answer questions as best I can. I've tried to be polite and not condescend to anyone or get personal, but I'm not sure how long I can keep repeating myself and address the same points over and over and continue maintaining the tone I set for myself.

So I'm more than willing to answer questions or address new points, but I'm done with repeating myself.

See you all on May 2. Michael, we even allow "furriners" in. :)

Funny Charles, very funny. I just may have to attend if I can find my passport.