And in other news...Mayor Paul's Removal Hearing has been pushed back to...wait for it...Monday, April 1 at 6:00 PM...April Fool's Day.

No venue has been scheduled for this abrupt change in date. Apparently the re-scheduling announced last night was NOT done in consultation with the Mayor or his legal team...and it is the night before the Tuesday, April 2nd election...how very convenient.

They just scheduled a mass campaign rally for the anti-TIF and pro-Paul candidates and their supporters on the eve of the election.

I couldn't have done a better job myself. Thanks.

Tick, Tock, Tick, Tock...........

We shall see, won’t we? Have you thought of the long term outcome of this argument? Let me try to convince you. If nothing is built on that corner and nothing replaces the already empty buildings in Ellisville, what do you think is going to happen? Here is what I see....the city will eventually make me pay (I live in Ellisville, I am not sure you do) for my trash removal and then it will become a slippery slope on the citizens of Ellisville to pay for the services that are currently paid by the city. That equates to an increase in taxes. In all the screaming and yelling on your side, I have not heard one peep out of you or the mayor that will address the above concerns. I think you people think a "fairy" is going to show up and sprinkle "fairy dust" over the area and poof....magic, economic activity.

Mr kerr, you should think about the taxes we will have to pay to make up for the 'lost' revenue that the taxpayers gave away in the TIF to Sansone/Walmart. $10 Million would pay for a lot of those same services you say you would have to pay for. Where do you think the city gets the funding to pay for your trash services, Bluebird Park and the pool/rec plex, maintaining the beautiful Bradford/Cleveland Pear trees that are about to pop in bloom any day now, or plow the streets, and any of the other services you get for 'free' from the city. Do you think a 'fairy' shows up and sprinkles money into the city coffers?

Those services (including the City Attorney's ever increasing pay @ $65K/yr part time) and more are what the taxpayers 'paid' to the Sansones, who won't hire one more person, or create one new job with that $10+ million from RPA1. Their idea for helping business in Ellisville? Give us another $10 million, not 'poof....magic, economic activity'.

How about instead of a 30MM project with a 10MM TIF share, they just think about a 20MM project. Effectively TIFs are a city-funded up front payout to the developer that the City *borrows* to pay, and the taxpayers are paying back the loan we took out (the bond) to sprinkle 'fairy dust' on the developers idea. And if the development fails? Yup, the City is still on the hook to pay back that loan. And if the development succeeds wildly? Yup, the developer keeps the profit and the City doesn't get squat.

That is what Matt Perrillo was saying last night. They removed the TDD/CID add-on tax to RPA1. So who will pay for the 10MM bond we issued to give it to Sansone? Extra points if you see the similarity to the Prop S 'no tax' 'deal' for Rockwood.

I agree, Robert. Not a single person, not the mayor, not anyone against the Wal-Mart, not anyone on the city council can name a single business that wants to come into Ellisville. Not one. If you can, Mr. Schmidt, I am listening. No one wanted a Wal-Mart but all I see are businesses shutting in Ellisville and moving elsewhere to get away from the idiocy and madness that they have to deal with. You all act like there is a line of businesses waiting to pour in. Where are they? What are they? I can name five or six that shuttered and moved within the last year. And who is going to be left paying for things including policing those empty buildings which look like an upscale suburban ghetto already? The people of Ellisville. Politics in Ellisville has become a schoolyard game. Embarrassingly so. Aside from the mild amusement I get from watching adults behave like six year old, it has gone past funny and is going to cost the residents of this city as city taxes go up. I get people don't want TIFs...but explain then the alternative to getting businesses to return to a city loaded with upscale housing where they actually should be knocking on our door. All I see are people AGAINST something, name one thing they are actually FOR.

Why not simply have all residents and business in Ellisville vote yes or no on this whole thing. If everyone is in agreement with the city council, it is a go, but if the citizens disagree, then make this all go away ! I am sure the powers that be would not like this, and would never allow it to happen, because it doesn't serve their interest.
I have a business in Ellisville, and I can assure you that when my lease is up, I will move to either Chesterfield or Ballwin as soon as I possibly can !

businesses are leaving Ellisville probably due to the politics going on. Why can't small businesses receive TIF money, they probably use their own funds. Large businesses don't need TIF. Get another developer who will work without TIF money! I'm sure they are out there somewhere. All Sansone does with the TIF is put it in their bank account - that is why they are rich!!!!

Mike K

You obviously do not understand economic activity. If you would read the proposal you would see your scenario is not correct...there is not "lost" revenue. The development will increase the collection of sales taxes once the building is finished. The money is not given away. People that enter the business will pay the sales tax, which in turn, a percentage of the sales tax will pay the TIF, you sir, will not pay anything if you wish to not buy a product. Today, there is no economic activity on that prime corner, hence no collection of any sales tax. If you build a building and sell products, then logically, you will increase the collection of taxes on an area that produces “zero” now. If the collection of sales taxes decrease, then logically, the services that are provided by the city must be cut, which then means that, I, citizen of Ellisville, must be forced to pay for the collection of my trash, maintenance of the park and snow removal. The pool was paid by previous sales taxes collected and is maintain by residents that pay a fee to enter. Since I do not go to the pool I do not pay the fee (tax).

What is even worse, is that gov't can place American citizens IN DEBT then give the money to corporations owned in part by themselves, their families, their relatives, their friends AND OR their political contributors.

Does Sansone own the property in question? Has or is Sansone contributing to the election of politicians who will vote favorably for TIF for Sansone? Do the politicians own any stock in ANY of the businesses that will be part of the TIF?

These are issues of corruption & theft.

This is slavery. The Bible says in Proverbs: "A Debtor is a slave to the lender"

Julius Caesar is credited with saying "The power to tax is the power to destroy"

I ask everyone "What is the power to place you in debt & give the money to others"?

That is corruption & tyranny.

Robert, The $10 million in TIFF comes directly off the top of tax monies that should be funding your services (i.e., trash, snow removal, etc.). It's guaranteed payments but your services are not guaranteed. So if you do not have the customer base needed to pay back those TIFF funds via Walmart taxes, the City of Ellisville loses funds from its operating budget (i.e., trash, streets, etc.). It's exactly what Rockwood School Board has been pushing on its residents for 20+ years. There is NO such thing as "no tax increase" bonds, TIFF, etc. Ultimately, you, the tax payer fund them. All of the bonds, TIFFs, etc. are truly tax on the middle class. There are Walmarts in the area and all over the country that are closing up shop. What do you think happens if Ellsville experiences the same issue prior to TIFF monies getting paid off? Do you think those loans for TIFF are forgiven? Nope, they are paid first, prior to Ellisville receiving one dime. It's legalized gambling by rich folks, i.e., Walmarts, Sansones, Glen Construction Co.'s, with lots of lawyer kickbacks to fund. None of ANYTHING to lose and all to gain. The gamble is on you, the taxpayer.

The original goal was to get a developer for the vacant auto dealer property at Clarkson and Manchester. Ellisville needs more residents to patronize the existing commercial property that we already have. Instead we are subsidizing the demolition of 100 units of reasonable affordable housing and chasing away hundreds of residents, plus devaluing the property immediately south of the proposed Walmart. The TIF subsidy for Walmart could have instead been used to stimulate the development of several hundred additional units of housing, and attract hundreds of new residents, similar to what was developed on the old Target site in downtown Kirkwood. What an outstanding transformation that has accomplished! Apartments and condos also pay property taxes! And residents spend money on sales taxes! If we received no immediate responses for developing the auto dealer property in 2009 & 2010, remember that the initial requests for proposals went out at the start of the housing bust and great recession. And whoever owns the auto property still had (and may still have) an inflated sense of what his obsolete and likely contaminated property is really worth. TIF's also tend to inflate land values of the subject properties. We should have been patient. It is still not too late for a do over. Council members, please find the courage to listen to your constituents and reconsider the Walmart subsidy. Let Walmart come on their own nickel if they really want to be here.

Wildwood taxpayer,
If you live in Wildwood, you do not have a dog in our hunt..but here you go……
It does not come off the top. The property is producing "zero" income for the city, except for property taxes, today. If you take the time to go over the proposal and the figures (see Manchester collection of sales taxes) you will find the numbers increase, not decrease. Do you mean no one will shop at Wal-mart in Ellisville? Have you ever heard of a Wal-Mart closing, anywhere? You argument doesn’t hold water. Sir, if you do not shop at Wal-Mart, you will not pay the TIF, period, end of story. The TIF is paid by a % of the sales taxes collected. The projection of increase will fund the city and school districts, with INCREASED money. For, instance, if the sales tax is 8% and the TIF is paid 2%, then 6% will go to the city. The property is producing "zero" sales taxes now. If you would read the proposal and look at the numbers, you may be enlightened. As for Mister Kister, "give me liberty or give death." Yes, I am enslaved, right.

In active, relatively affluent areas such as Ellisville, all TIF does is shift costs from businesses operating in the area (and businesses WILL build there once this all blows over) to the average taxpayer. That includes costs for Ellisville services as well as extra costs for every Rockwood taxpayer who gets shafted with TIFs.
That busy corner is hardly blighted, even though Sansone has made a great deal of money making those claims and threatening cities with an empty corner. Less are empty in vibrant cities like Ellisville when they make it clear that they will not support a TIF and REAL taxpaying businesses get a crack at the land instead of Wal-Mart tying up the entire process.

No Mike,
If you do not shop at either store YOU DO NOT PAY ANYTHING, get it!
Mike, it is real simple, Sansone will produce the building (48 million) the city will pay off the cost of building by by paying a % of the increased sales....this is not rocket science.

How much sales tax does KMart generate??Or the Golden Wok? KMart will close soon and we will have matching vacant corners. What did WalMart do for Manchester? A new bright shopping area would be welcome. The 20 people that support Mayor Paul are his friends just wanting their 30 seconds of fame on the media. Ellisville also has a provision for the empty WalMart should it close.

My suggestion to some of Ellisville residents is to actually research and attempt to understand the principles of macroeconomics. There is a limited amount of "sales tax" to be found in Ellisville, in the same way that there is a limited gross national product. Numbers do not change. Populations do not increase. Residents do not suddenly have more disposable income. None of these things occur, just because Walmart pulls into town. Whatever Walmart is able to produce in sales tax will simply be transferred from all other businesses (who will be put out of business). You still have the same amount of spending. Walmart has done nothing good for ANY community. Take a drive through some once thriving rural areas and see what Walmart has done for them. They are now ghost towns without small businesses or jobs. Most residents leave ghost towns. And while that may not be the case in Ellisville, it IS the Walmart business model. They're taking entitlements from both ends. They take TIF "entitlement" funds for development via a local developer. And then they take government/state "entitlement" funds for all of their low-paid employees. Are you aware that Walmart has a corporate department that actually walks its employees through the welfare system, i.e., Medicaid, Food Stamps, Etc. The employees of Walmart can qualify for "entitlements' due to Big Box not paying them a decent wage or providing insurance benefits. Why do you think they employee so many part-time employees? Wally=Thief.

Ellisville did not throw out the people in the apartments, the owners gladly sold the buildings. Maybe the apartments could be built next to E. Schmidts house.as section 8 housing. They could plow her street because Ellisville will no longer have the funds to plow the street. Ellisville is a media event because of some people don't know how to run a business. It takes money to make money. If it goes for a vote of the residents Paul and his friends will use the media to scare the residents about lower property values, trash, lighting, traffic,etc Maybe Glen Construction will put in a bid. Any proposals for Fountain Plaza? Sinclair Lincoln, Best Buy, Arts Lawnmower??? We don't need an apartment building. Do we want a Steam Boat Village like in Ballwin?? We need a shopping venue with nice small shops, cafes, and Wal Mart will bring that in TIF will generate JOBS< TAXES. Look for more businesses to move out of the city. No bowling allies with a street full of pot holes Sansone is a respected organization and would make that intersection proud. Once the proposed buildings are rejected and they move west of Ellisville to Franklin County we will be the west county gheto.

@BrownBear123: "the owners gladly sold the buildings".
If by 'gladly' you mean take a 10% haircut on fair value or lose far more than that when puppet attorney Martin (who got almost his entire year's salary from Sansone alone, $50K) drafts up the eminent domain papers, then I guess 'gladly' would apply.

Sort of like how you 'gladly' pay a $100 'administrative fee' for a red light camera violation instead of a $80 fine for a moving violation.

If Franklin County wants to whore themselves out to be the next TIF victim, I have zero problems with that.

And that provision if they close/move? The loophole the City Attorney overlooked? They have no obligation to tear it down - unless the City pays for it. Got any magic 'fairy dust' saying around to pay for that with an empty giant store generating no revenue, just like the empty Kmart across the street would be, and the empty Best Buy, and the empty Moore dealerships, etc.

Mike
Do you now that the people that own the apartments, oil shop, and the vet took a 10% "haircut?" Are you privy to some info we do not have? The area, as I understand it, has been under eminent domain, since the 1960's. Mike you really must keep on task...please stick with one topic at a time.

Since the Apartments weren’t built until the 1970s and Valvoline Oil Change is the most recent addition within the past decade? (or so,) how could anyone legally build on property that has “been under eminent domain” as you say since the 1960s?

Do you even have a clue as to what you are talking about?

Perhaps your students and SLCC-Wildwood listen to you blow long and hard because they don’t have any choice and they are too young to tell just how “full of it” you are.

Everyone on this board is an adult and not impressed by your self-touted academic credentials not to mention your inability to reason, write in complete sentences or spell.

You must really keep on task and stick the facts rather than fabricate them…under eminent domain since the 1960s…good gawd…

Ms Schimdt,
I just viewed your anti TIF statement in front of the board, in April, 2012. Let me see if I have this correct. Ms. Schmidt, 48 Cathcart Dr, Apr C, stated, “the election was a referendum by proxy (the mayor only has 1 vote, not total decision making) on welfare for the wealthy” and she made reference to Article 9 of the Charter. Further, she believed that “the apartments were zoned commercial and believed the intent of the eminent domain resolution was to protect all residents.” Do I have that correct or did I miss something, Ms Schimdt? Yes, eminent domain does protect residents, but only the people that actually own the property. I read all of the statements by the local business people from the area (Barney's, Mansfield, the owners of the apartments, ect) acknowledging their support for the development. I do not tout my credentials, but you seem to be enthralled by them. Do I have the facts straight, Ms Schimdt or did I miss anything? I do my homework.......

Mr. Kerr, you also incorrectly conclude that an act of sale of property with apartments on it that were clearly an investment by the property owners to provide housing for residents, as somehow being the same as 'support' for the RPA2 development. That conclusion cannot be drawn from the facts, unless you can cite your sources for such a claim, as you are not among the property owners in question.

My dear,
I do understand your argument and narrow self interest. I do understand you wish not to move, but you have no say in the matter. I understand you wish to attack people that do not agree with you. Some people, when backed in a corner tend to attack, name call, degrade, denigrate and pooh-pooh their ideas. I understand that politics is a full contact sport, but when facts are not on your side, some people resort to the above tactics. The property is not being forcibly taken, it is being sold. I assume that I quoted you properly at the Aprl 2012 Coincil meeting, right? By the way, I do have two dogs and I can translate the above into German, if you wish.

Ladies and Gentlemen,
I bet not one of those apartment owners actually lived on the premises sold. It is the unfortunate residents of the apartments who were the real losers in that circumstance. How heartless you are to condemn those residents simply because they could only afford a rent below most of your monthly housing costs. In fact, after reading so many of your comments, I am beginning to think that getting rid of those apartments were the only thing on the agenda initially, and now, whoops! -- what can be done with the empty space is beginning to backfire on all of you. In fact, given the current economic quandry, some of you may eventually wish you had those apartments as your own housing opportunity.

Mike,
If the charges of taping a conversation in an executive meeting is found to be true, then are you not concerned with that issue? Impeachment is politics, not personal, my man. Please respond without personal attacks, I know you can do it.
Sandra,
It is not heartless to sell your own property. Are you going to let me come over to your house and rent a bedroom and then, have a say, when you can sell your house? People that live in apartments are renters of private property and have no say in the disposition of that property...economic reality 101.

Ms Schmidt,
But you have already stated that the apartments were considered commercial property, not residential, in your statement to the council, in April, 2012. Do you wish me to repeat your statement for you, it as afterall, in the public record.
As I see, by your other statements, you're still using inuendo, personal attacks, degrading language, name calling and denigration in your post, please be more original. I am just an Ellisville citizen who votes. Tick, Toc, Tic, Tock....Tic.....

Ms Schmidt,
I was asked by Shemp to answer his question on eminent domain. Yes, I must be the stupid one. Do you guys/gals take turns or something? By your own statements, you have admitted that the Clarkchester apartments were and are, zoned commercial, which means that Wal-Mart can be built there without rezoning. Would you like a copy of your statement? Please see the other posts on the other page. Your serve.

Mr. Kerr is hereby designated the "Pivot Man".

So...is that how it works now? The council members are called out ("For you all not to listen to the people who put you in office is wrong," Paul said. "Shame on you.") and they retaliate by 'ousting' a mayor who is apparently one of two (Michelle Murray) that are actually working for the people of Ellisville, as elected? I can't believe that that's even allowed or that you all would think of doing that! Did one of you stop and think that maybe Mayor Paul is right? Or were you too busy thinking of your own agenda? The rest of you need to take another look at your responsibilities. Mayor Paul is right on....shame on you.

Rebecca;
The problem with Mayor Paul, whether he is right or not, is that he has absolutely no clue what he is doing, and has no idea how to run a counsel. Michelle Murray was against the tiff, and she was vocal about it. But NO ONE suggested she be removed. The problem with Mayor Paul is that he never took the time to learn how a city works and how to follow the laws set forth in the Charter. Mayor Paul isn't being scrutinized because he is against TIF or Walmart. He is being confronted due to his inability to follow the LAW

Mikie,
Please see the citation, April 2012, Ellisville Council meeting, which the owners of said property agree with the development. Facts, my boy, always get in the way of emotion. Please read the minutes and it will eye opening. Can you hear the jackhammers, yet? I can.

“Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it's the only thing that ever has.”
Margaret Mead (1902-1978);
cultural anthropologist

Yeah... Walmart and Sansone need TIF money like we need more snow. How is it that Florissant told them to go pound sand when they asked their city for TIF money, yet the project was completed, anyway, without it. And what are we doing to attract tennants for the other, several empty commercial spaces in our city?

C Panter
I live in Ellisville and not Florissant. Ellisville did not tell Wal-Mart to pound sand.....

@CPanter: That is because, the 'but for' clause is an out and out LIE by the developer. And the designation of an area needing development is not 'blighted' just because a city is desperate to shovel taxpayer money at the developer and cripple future budgets for 20 years to pay of the TIF bond.

What are we doing to attract other businesses? Well, that's a question for the outgoing council members Murray, Anglin, and Pieper, Acup, Perrillo and City Attorney Martin who pocketed $50K from Sansone to help get the deal done. On top of the $65K the City - us taxpayers - paid him to look after our interests.

They are the ones that effed over all the other businesses - including local ones - to the sole benefit of Walmart, the Sansones, and City Attorney Martin.

They are the same ones holding a kangaroo court on April Fool's Day to forcibly remove our duly elected Mayor from serving the City for the remaining two years of his term.

The current council does not care about your vote. It seems City Attorney Martin has appointed himself 'Dictator of Ellisville', but the tater is just a formality. I've seen him dictate legislation directly to the City Clerk, made up on the fly, to be voted on by our 'informed' council.