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Ellisville Considers Speed Tables, Double-Fines for Walmart Roadways

A double-fine zone for drivers caught speeding was just one of the ideas proposed Wednesday to reduce potential traffic issues at the site.

The on Wednesday discussed various proposals related to traffic safety in response to residents' concerns about the impact of a pending Walmart Superstore.

The commercial project, which will be facilitated by The Sansone Group after the city council this month for the space, will be located southwest of Manchester and Kiefer Creek roads.

Councilmember Roze Acup said she's heard from constituents who live nearby Manchester Road and Weis Avenue who expressed concerns about the project's expected impact on traffic.

“And there’s already some issue with traffic, speeding particularly,” Acup said.

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Bill Menchak, 58, an Ellisville resident who lives on Weis Avenue, said he feared the store would lead to increased traffic on back roads such as Weis, Froesel Drive and Hutchison Road, which could be especially dangerous.

“Those streets house a daycare center, a church, a grade school … and it doesn’t take a whole lot of protocol to know that people are going to avoid Clarkson and Manchester.”

Councilmember Matt Pirrello said one “viable option” aimed at reducing speeding would be the installation of speed tables—scored portions of roadway or uneven platforms that limit the top speed for safe, controlled travel.

“Until you got to about 20 to 25 miles per hour, you can drive pretty well on them,” City Engineer Bill Schwer said. “When you exceed about 30 miles per hour, that’s when you’d run into problems and cars would bottom out and so forth. So they’re pretty effective.”

Councilmember Troy Pieper said that depending on residents’ support, he would back a zero-tolerance speeding area with a “double fine zone” for drivers cited for speeding.

“It would not take long to not have any additional problems,” Pieper said of a possible double fine zone.

A the close of Wednesday night's discussion, the council agreed to direct city staff to formally evaluate all roadways surrounding the project area, which should include sampling travel speeds and car counts, in order to identify potential problem areas.

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CSloan May 19, 2012 at 02:41 AM
You have mail.
K James May 19, 2012 at 03:03 AM
my oh my... I hope you ALL got a chance to read the 'bio' on Mayor Paul. in the West News Magazine. In the article near the end, Mayor Paul is quoted saying "Also, we need to gentrify our city." For those of you who don't know the definition, from Websters dictionary - and I quote word for word: Gentrify::: the process of renewal and rebuilding accompanying the influx of middle-class or affluent people into deteriorating areas that often displaces poorer residents. Your Mayor is a true piece of work. Wants to get rid of the poor people, his quote not mine, I think we should all live in peace together. Aparently the new mayor has different ideas.
Michael Rhodes May 19, 2012 at 05:40 AM
I thought the the statement that he has no respect the other council members was a bit much. Would have been better to say he was dissappointed or even disgusted with their vote on the TIF. I am sure he didn't mean get rid of the poor and elderly. I think he intended to mean make the city look newer through infrastructure upgrades and other ways. Mayor Paul has had difficultly with speaking in the past. He needs to learn to choose his words more carefully. I could be wrong and maybe he meant what he said. I would that wasn't the case.
K James May 19, 2012 at 11:47 AM
Michael I think that his poorly chosen words just go to his inexperience. He should remember that as a mayor in a charter city, he is one of seven, his vote is one, without the support of the other six, he has zero ability to get anything accomplished. So to have no respect for anyone else on the council, he is going to be pretty ineffective. A mayor in a charter city has to build consensus, not be a petty petulent man/child. He has passion to fight on a single issue, but does he have the maturity to guide this city? 'painting curbs' wow, that IS a plan.
E. Schmidt May 19, 2012 at 01:08 PM
K James-- >>>can anyone join your EllisvilleA9A group?<<< I don't know if you are asking for yourself or on the behalf of others. But, just to clarify... You do realize that the group is dedicated to recalling the individuals who voted for the Sansone Walmart TIF Project, correct? So, they would at least need to agree to that course of action...and if not, they are welcome not to engage with us. It's that simple.
Michael Rhodes May 19, 2012 at 02:51 PM
Would you welcome someone that wants to recall one of those persons based on how they voted on another issue although they may not have an issue with the Sansone TIF vote?
E. Schmidt May 19, 2012 at 03:11 PM
Michael Rhodes-- >>>although they may not have an issue with the Sansone TIF vote?<<< The group is focused on the recall effort related to the Sansone Walmart TIF and not related to other votes or issues from the past.
Jimmy C May 20, 2012 at 05:07 PM
Kate James, I copied this ladies response to your comment on West county magazine's article. You are a terrible person and this lady took the words right out of my mouth. I was there when you were on the TIF commission. I copied and pasted her response cont.
Jimmy C May 20, 2012 at 05:08 PM
"Kate James- You and Charles Pavlack are former council members and everything that is wrong with Ellisville today. You were the biggest joke of any council members we have ever had. You joined because your kid scraped a foot on the bottom of a pool? YOU are pathetic. Both of you were on the TIF Commission four months ago, selected by Pirrello, and listened to 20 people who were against this project to 1 who approved of it. YOU still tried to pass the ‘positive recommendation’ for this TIF and didn’t care to represent the people. WHY? Because you were hand selected by MAYOR PIRRELLO! You dislike Mayor Paul because he does the ‘right thing’!!! Unlike you! He broke up your clan of morons. You and Pirrello should be investigated for corruption and payouts. THAT IS A FACT! I WATCHED THE COUNCIL MEMBERS, THEY WONT EVEN SHAKE THE NEW MAYORS HAND. THAT IS PATHETIC! HE WILL NEVER HAVE RESPECT BY THE 5 ON THAT COUNCIL! HE BEAT 2 OF THEM IN THE ELECTION. HE IS RIGHT, SEATS WILL HAVE TO CHANGE AND WE CAN WAIT 1 YEAR!!! Your actually the one O.K. with, not ‘often’, kicking people out of town. You are hurting our town Kate with your ‘smear’ comments on various websites, not Mr. Paul. You are a joke and a former council member should show respect for our mayor, just like the others! Wake up!
Jimmy C May 20, 2012 at 05:26 PM
Kate James- with your bashing online comments, Charles Pavlaks letter to the editor right before the election, Dawn Anglin's (Current Council Member) husband disrespectful comments) and the board of alderman treating our newly elected mayor with disrespect is not enough.... you and Charles are former council members? What is wrong with the both of you? Is that professional? No, it isn't. I would be upset if I was Mayor Paul, too. He has to put up with you children. Nobody seems to listens to the people but Mayor Paul and Murrey and they are the bad ones? You are a disgrace. Go do something with your life. Oh and by the way, gentrify was used 100% correctly and if you really don't understand the meaning of the word and have to look it up and post the definition... I feel sorry for you.That is an intelligent and perfectly good word to describe what our city needs to do.
mike k May 22, 2012 at 09:30 PM
Jimmy C, weren't you the one that posted those awful photos of Walmart shoppers on another thread? That was in really bad taste. Now with your little rant above, you really need to seek out a psychologist to help you deal with your anger management issues.
Michael Rhodes May 23, 2012 at 04:11 AM
Thought I would check this since I did not know the exact definition: gen·tri·fy  gen·tri·fied, gen·tri·fy·ing. verb (used with object) 1. to improve (a neighborhood) by gentrification. gen·tri·fi·ca·tion noun 1. the buying and renovation of houses and stores in deteriorated urban neighborhoods by upper- or middle-income families or individuals, thus improving property values but often displacing low-income families and small businesses. 2. an instance of gentrifying; the condition of being gentrified.
E. Schmidt May 23, 2012 at 11:19 AM
>>>Walmart shoppers are not a protected class. Seems some people are taking it personally.<<< I spit coffee on my keyboard. Yeah and you're right about the "dislocated" citizens. Throwing old ladies out on the street with $1,000 in their pocket and a five year waiting list for subsidized senior housing hardly rates a peep or protest in the comments section...but gawd forbid we should malign Wal-Mart shoppers...now, that's an insult!
Michael Rhodes May 23, 2012 at 01:11 PM
Protected class or not it still isn't right to make fun of people based on their appearance. When you make fun of someone that person does take it personally. Jimmy C deemed it appropriate to laugh at others based on a single photo of them and then went so far as to share those photos with others. I am proud to say I did not visit the link he provided. I thought we had moved away from the days where it was acceptable to laugh at those who are different from the "masses".
Jimmy C May 23, 2012 at 02:07 PM
Yep, I sure did. I do appologize for degrading Walmart shoppers but the fact of the matter is..... Walmart brings tons of arrests and problems to a community, ie shop lifters, thieves fellons, and riff raff no matter what age, race, gender. That is a fact jack. Traffic Impact •An average size Walmart Supercenter will generate nearly 10,000 car trips per day. (1)(2) •A Walmart Supercenter often has between seven and nine tractor-trailer deliveries daily, as well as one or two smaller trucks delivering products from vendors. (3) Crime Statistics •In 2004, there were a reported 148, 331 police calls across 514 Walmart stores analyzed. That equates to an average of 269 calls per store. (4) ◦In Texas, there were 21,741 police incidents reported at 69 stores studied. (4) ◦The Houston store located at 2727 Dunvale reported 1,123 police incidents, placing it in the Top 10 stores nationwide.(4) •Between 2003 – 2006, there were: ◦16 alleged murders committed at Walmart stores and parking lots, including 2 alleged ◦murders in the Houston area (Katy and Spring).(4) ◦16 alleged rapes and sexual assaults at Walmart stores and parking lots, including 1 in the Houston area.(4) ◦11 alleged sex crimes against children at Walmart stores and parking lots, including 1 in the Houston area.(4) •Nationally, Walmart stores cost taxpayers an estimated $77 million annually in increased police costs.(4) Tax Information
Jimmy C May 23, 2012 at 02:07 PM
•There have been at least 29 subsidy deals in Texas benefitting Walmart worth a total of about $90.8 million.(5) ◦The Baytown and New Braunfels developments alone were granted $39 million in tax subsidies.(6) •Since the mid-1980s, Walmart has obtained at least $1.2 billion in reported subsidies nationwide.(5) •By its own admission, Walmart disclosed that they did not pay $2.85 billion in taxes for fiscal year 2009, which they would likely have to pay if audited.(6)(7) Job Statistics •Walmart store openings reduce retail employment in a county by 2.7%.(8) •Walmart’s entry into a metro area eliminates similar jobs that pay about 18% more than Walmart.(9) •The presence of big box stores, such as Walmart, causes “a substantial reduction in net employment growth at smaller retailers, which is mostly accounted for by an increase in job destruction from store exit.”(10) •An average of two local supermarkets are forced out of business by every Walmart Supercenter.(10)
Michael Rhodes May 23, 2012 at 02:11 PM
Thank you, although I consider it more common sense than enlightenment (do onto others and what not). Never heard of LOLCats before. I searched it and see it is funny stuff about cats (surprising I know).
Michael Rhodes May 23, 2012 at 02:46 PM
Interesting. Can you provide comparable statistics for Target and Kmart (Sears)? Right now I can not tell if this is less, more, or in line with what other businesses experience. Still do not see how this justify's your making fun of others based on their appearances (Walmart shoppers or not).
Jimmy C May 23, 2012 at 03:24 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvxNgdFeWqM People like attention. How do you know I am not admiring them Michael. I find it humorous looking at men that dress like women and skin tight wrestling suits on overweight people. Who doesnt? When has it become illegal to laugh a little? If you crapped yourself with thong underwear on with your rear showing at walmart, I would laugh a little. It doesn't mean I hate you.
Jimmy C May 23, 2012 at 03:26 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=ghrDIQ-K8mg
E. Schmidt May 23, 2012 at 03:32 PM
>>>Can you provide comparable statistics for Target and Kmart (Sears)?<<< Can you provide them? Do some homework for us, And when you do we will all see that Wal-Mart is the Welfare Queen of taxpayer subsidies. In fact, their phenomenal growth and success is built on taxpayer TIF subsidy and credits and taxpayers picking up the Medicaid bill for the health cares costs of their employees and the employees kids. The High Cost of Low Prices.
E. Schmidt May 23, 2012 at 04:04 PM
And MR, since you don't live in Ellisville, you may have missed this little nugget about what a really sweet deal this is for Wal-Mart. >>>Wal-Mart to hold $2M in notes (to encourage Wal-Mart’s full retail use of the property over time and to ensure that the TIF debt is paid off)<<< So, Wal-Mart will gets tax-free muni interest from buying and holding the bond debt issued by the City of Ellisville AND write-off their lease payments on the store to Sansone Group as a business expense. Lather, rinse, repeat nationwide and you can get idiot taxpayers to fund the debt to build your stores for you and then earn tax-free interest on the debt itself! What a racket!!!
Michael Rhodes May 23, 2012 at 04:15 PM
ES: >>>Wal-Mart to hold $2M in notes (to encourage Wal-Mart’s full retail use of the property over time and to ensure that the TIF debt is paid off)<<< "So, Wal-Mart will gets tax-free muni interest from buying and holding the bond debt issued by the City of Ellisville" Isn't than how bonds work? I seem to recall concerns from the mayor and others that the taxes generated would not meet the bond obligations causing a default and ruining the credit rating. If that is still the case wouldn't Wal-Mart (along with the other bond holders) lose money on this sweet deal? Why doesn't the city just buy the bonds then if this is such a deal? "AND write-off their lease payments on the store to Sansone Group as a business expense." Isn't that what all businesses do? Not sure I understand your issue with this.
E. Schmidt May 23, 2012 at 04:18 PM
Jimmy C, It is my understanding that Wal-Mart by and large uses local police rather than hire private security correct? (Other than loss preventions specialists to prevent shoplifting.) I also understand the calls for service that police have to respond to also exceed other retailers, correct? If so, this is another way taxpayers "subsidize" Wal-Mart. I guess it's a good thing that the police department will be across the street if the deal goes through. The Ellisville PD will become the Wal-Mart PD. Please post those stats if you come across them.
Michael Rhodes May 23, 2012 at 04:28 PM
I didn't provide the Wal-Mart detail or even know where it came from. You can tell it was copy from somewhere that took it's information from somewhere else (see the foot note indicators with no foot notes provided). Usually these studies do the camparables otherwise the study tends to be worthless.
E. Schmidt May 23, 2012 at 04:28 PM
MR-- With muni-debt of the TIF kind, usually only two things happen: 1. The bondholders suck the taxpayers dry and failing to do thay by law 2. The bonds get restructured as needed. Rarely do TIF bonds default. (Check any muni-bond debt tracker service.) I think the question is: Why is Wal-Mart only in for 2 MILLION? Think about that for a minute.
Michael Rhodes May 23, 2012 at 04:35 PM
If admiring men dressed as women or obese individuals gives you enjoyment then that is your own business. I personally would not laugh at a person not knowing if they had a medical or mental condition that caused them to have difficulty controlling their bowels. Seems insensitive to me.
Michael Rhodes May 23, 2012 at 06:03 PM
You have lost me now. You take issue about Walmart holding $2m of the bonds and then question further why they only are taking on $2m of the bonds even though you have an issue with them already holding $2m in bonds. Your logic has confused me so on that note I think I will bow out of these converstations. Best of luck to you and hope to interact with you on other topics on the Patch..
E. Schmidt May 24, 2012 at 11:28 AM
Michael Rhodes, >>>You take issue about Walmart holding $2m of the bonds…<<< Well yes, of course. I don’t think Wal-Mart should get to earn tax free interest on the bonds issued at taxpayer financed expense to build their store for them BECAUSE TIF IS A SHAM. >>>… and then question further why they only are taking on $2m of the bonds…<<< Well yes, of course. Since this is unfortunately allowed by law and this is the way these conniving thieves operate, why aren’t the grabbing more of this debt with both hands??? That’s the real question…. I think 2 MILLION is a small amount for Wal-Mart to hold on this particular deal. Wal-Mart is usually quite piggish when it comes to slurping up tax free interest on the muni bonds issued to build their stores. Of course the 2 MILLION on this deal may just be the “appetizer” to calm/con the City Council into believing they have a commitment to the store and will clear the pad...and then they go in for a “full meal deal” on the bonds later through the secondary market at below par. Of course the 2 MILLION on this deal is perhaps ALL they ever care to risk on this project. If that is really all the bonds they are ever going to buy on their own store, it could signal a plain lack of faith. If you don't get, it that's OK. Bonds are complicated stuff. And I know you don’t live in Ellisville, so your interest is more in the nature of a debating exercise.
E. Schmidt May 24, 2012 at 11:31 AM
And speaking of clearing that pad (from above) … I wonder if anyone has considered the following: >>>Demolition provision—provides that if Wal-Mart leaves the building vacant (defined as in excess of 50% of the space) for a period of 12 months, the City can initiate demolition proceedings to clear the site and bring it to a “pad ready” development status <<< Demolition??? At whose expense??? Is there a demolition/decommissioning fund??? Will some future Ellisville City Council have to bring suit to demolish the building??? Against who??? Wal-Mart, Sansone or both??? Can anyone tell me where Wal-Mart has occupied a store in the St. Louis suburban area for 23 years??? What if these bonds are "mortgage backed" ??? Can we actually demand to tear down a store it the TIF isn’t paid off yet and the bonds are mortgage backed ??? Lots of questions…not so many answers. Few details like this are made public…and the public hardly gets to ask any questions about these kinds of issues at all.

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